When you're told by your teacher that you're not going to be good at much other than using a shovel, it's hard to imagine how you'd work with that information. Most normal human beings may lose a little self-confidence, feel a little less than adequate and shy away from pursuing any big dreams. But thankfully our guest today Neil Hipwell from Futureflip is some sort of superhuman that never let these words stop him.
After dropping out of school at 14 years old to pursue an apprenticeship, Neil realised that not only was he good with a shovel, he had a passion for building and was willing to work very hard to achieve a quality, functional and beautiful product. At just 19 years of age, Neil went out on his own after completing his building and carpentry apprenticeship and founded his company, Futureflip. His ethos is different than most in residential building which we've found to be very refreshing. Neil takes commercial building principals and applies them to his residential building developments. Working on up to 20 projects at once, Neil and his team are still able to deliver a finished project within 12 - 16 weeks, which is just insane. We told you he was superhuman.
On this week's episode of Building with BuildHer, Rebeka chats to Neil about how he's able to achieve these results in luxury builds within such a short timeframe and within a reasonable budget. He's kicking so many goals, and we want to know all his secrets!
Speaking of secrets, if you're a part of our DevelopHers Inner Circle, you'll have access to a whole lot more of Neil's insights from our recent trip to Sydney. Learn more here.
SOME TOPICS THAT WE COVER:
Being "book smart" isn't everything.
Learn from those in the industry around you. Look at their attention to detail, ask a lot of questions and be aware of ways you can improve.
Working to a timeframe, budget and design.
There are always going to be aspects that are out of your control, but you can work to mitigate unnecessary risks.
How to not fall behind on a project when you're working with unreliable tradespeople.
The importance of a well-utilised Site Manager.
Word of mouth when picking your building team is paramount.
Kribashini: Our Podcast, we believe that building is fun, super fun, so much fun.
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Kribashini: We are women in the building industry, and as developers, builders and project managers, it's our passion to share everything we know with other women doing the same. That's why we've created this podcast for you.
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Kribashini: You're into design.
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Kribashini: About to renovate.
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Rebeka: Welcome to today's podcast. [chuckles] We've got Neil from Futureflip here. Neil's got a really unique way of building in Sydney. He's building lots of new houses, but he's taking the commercial process and taking it to the domestic market. I think the hero of that for the customer is high-end houses on 12 to 16-week turnaround?
Neil Hipwell: Yes. It's normally two houses, duplexes.
Rebeka: Okay not one, two. Two houses for 12 to 16 weeks. Maybe if we go back a step for everyone. You said you didn't study at school.
Neil: No, I'm a dropout. I finished school at 14 and started my apprenticeship, so definitely didn't have the start that most people have in terms of uni-based learning. I was dyslexic and ADD when I left school, so I didn't have the best education, although my parents tried really hard to give it to me. So yeah I basically left school at 14, started an apprenticeship, and loved it, just was obsessed with everything that I was doing, and here I am.
Rebeka: Your family in building?
Neil: No, not at all.
Rebeka: No influences, You just saw it, loved it?
Neil: Yes. My dad, he works for Energy Australia doing the power lines, and my mom works for a heart specialist, she's a secretary.
Rebeka: You showed them that dropping out at 14 was a good move. [chuckles]
Neil: Yes. I actually had teachers saying your son's going to be good on the shovel. That's about it because he can't read and things like that, which I--
Rebeka: That's inspiring.
Neil: I think that sort of stuff did inspire me, and it did make me want to show people, prove them wrong sort of thing because I didn't actually know I was smart in a sense. I knew I was good at sport. I knew I could talk to people and I had people skills, but I knew that there was things that I couldn't do in terms of-- I thought running a business was just-- When I left school, I didn't actually think I'd ever run a business, but I knew I'd be good at my trade because practically, I could see building was a very practical thing, where it's common sense based as opposed to reading books.
When I went on-site, I would see a tile, I lay a tile or a brick lead, lay a brick, and I would have-- Literally, I can remember those things from today exactly how they did it, and I could learn from that, like my memory was really switched on to the things I was enjoying. Since then, I've basically used practicality over, I guess, my learning at school and things like that.
Even at TAFE. I didn't think I'd get through TAFE. I never thought I'd be able to pass TAFE to become a builder and do my Builder's License. That was a pretty big milestone for me as well because basically when I started TAFE, I couldn't read. It was tricky, and I was colorblind, and I couldn't pass the colorblind test. When you use explosive power tools, you need to know which charge you're using and what you're going to use. There was a few hurdles. There was definitely some hurdles there that luckily, I had some good teachers that could see that I knew how to build stuff.
Rebeka: That's really funny. No one gave me that test.
Neil: I just don't use explosive power tools. I use a hammer drill instead. [chuckles]
Rebeka: Perfect. Good plan. [chuckles]
Neil: It was a pretty different start, but I think the fact that always I'm terrible at school and learning, it made me a slingshot reaction when I started building. I really went quite well because I was like, "Well, I can do this." This feels good to be able to actually do something good, and work hard. If you work hard, and at the end of the day, you stand back and look at what you've done, you might have been framing walls all day, and I could look back and go, "That was a good day." It was a 10 hour-
Rebeka: It's very physical, isn't it?
Neil: Yes. 10 hours of hard work, and I created that. From day one, I was super inspired and then I was working on luxury new homes. I was doing all these really high-end incredible stuff. I was talking to the owners that were really successful business people, and asking them questions about how they got to where they are, and things like that.
I think looking back now, those are pivotal moments for where I ended up because I learnt from people that had a different background to me, but they made it and they made it out of free business and things like that, and property development was-- Most of the guys we were working for was property developers, and now I'm a property developer, so I stole some advice from back then and used it now.
Rebeka: I think everyone takes inspiration from somewhere. It's really what you do with it. If you've got big guts to follow through with it and implement it. How old were you when you started Futureflip?
Neil: I was 18, turning 19.
Rebeka: Sure, because why wouldn't you start a property development company when you're 18? [chuckles]
Neil: When I started it was more renovations. I was just a carpenter at that point in time. I wasn't great working for people because-- Although I appreciate so much what I learned when I was an apprentice, I just was so hungry to do my own thing. I knew that it would have been a struggle, but at that point in time, I was living at home with my parents, I had nothing to lose.
I said, "I'm just going to give this a crack and see if I can do my own jobs and actually get my own work." Luckily, a few people trusted me. I don't know how they did, at 18 to do their kitchens and bathrooms renos, but I remember starting at six in the morning working till 11 at night and just loving every minute of it and then doing a great job for the client.
I probably didn't make much money, but I didn't care at that point in time. The client really appreciated that and then obviously told all their friends. By the time I was 20, I think I had about 19 people working for me and a pretty big business running. It kicked off really fast, and it was all just based on hard work, not really-- I didn't even have Instagram, didn't have social media back then. I didn't even send emails.
Rebeka: Was there Instagram back then?
Neil: I think it was Myspace or something. I definitely didn't have the tools we have now. It's just next level now. You can get work really easy.
Rebeka: Some people can get work easily. I think that's underselling it. I think you guys have a very unique value proposition, and I think the way you really solve the problem for the customer, though right. The problem is, knowing the amount, understanding the design, and keeping it in a timeframe.
Neil: Timeframe and a budget, yes. Everyone's got the same problem. No matter how rich you are, you have the same problem. You've got a budget. Since I was doing bathrooms at 18, they all had the same problem. They had a budget, they wanted to be on trend with their design, and they wanted it to fit their timeframe in terms of moving back in and having a bathroom for their kids and things like that. Having no bathroom was a problem. So I learned really fast that I had to smash it out. I couldn't stuff around. We were turning over a bathroom every week. When we started to really pick up work, it was every single week, I'd do a whole start to finish bathroom.
Rebeka: So five days.
Neil: That would be seven days. I'd work Sundays.
Rebeka: You'd work seven days because that's really the triangle that we talk to people about, the time, cost, quality. Normally-
Neil: The waterproofing and things like that. You got a timeframe that three days. At the start, we do demo, re-sheet your walls, get your waterproofing done, and then have some time for waterproofing to dry before you start putting bedding and all the rest of it down. Every job was seven days. We'd finish on Sunday, I'd clean the bathroom, and I hand it over every Sunday.
I think that the start where I did probably three years of just really hard labouring work to get all those jobs done really well, never have issues, make sure the quality was right, and to do them so fast. It taught me, "Hang on a minute. That's what every client wants." They just want it done fast. They don't want you in the house every day for a year. Nobody wants that.
Rebeka: As much as they like you, but don't want to see you every day. [chuckles]
Neil: Nobody wants to make that noise morning and night. No one wants that. They all have a budget. Everyone has a dollar that they can afford. Then everyone wants to stand back at the end of it and show their friends and be proud of the money they spent on their house. It's a pretty simple three things that you need to make sure you do. I worked that out.
Rebeka: When you say it quickly, yes, that's basically simple, but there are very few people that are meeting that brief right.
Neil: Yes, there is. Some people can hit the quality. Very few builders have the design skill, so there's always a missing link. Then some people just don't get the client actually has a budget, and they just keep doing things and blowing the budget. We just learned that if we keep the client happy in those three areas, we'll kill it, and that's what we did, and we're still doing. It's just bigger scale now. Instead of bathrooms, we're building townhouses and duplexes and luxury homes, but it's the same principle from when I started.
Rebeka: I would call you a turnkey builder. Maybe you could tell us what would be the process for a client that would come to you and say, "Okay. Well, I've got this block of land."
Neil: A lot of our clients we work for now are developers, and they've come to us a few times. Normally, they'll find or look for a block land and say, "This one looks good. Might do a duplex on this to make some money." That's our main clientele, people looking to make a profit. They'll say, "I'll buy this block and I'll put two houses on it. I'll sell one and I'll rent one or I'll live in one." whatever else.
We basically help them from that stage, which is holistic from the start. We help them and show them the issues with the block, we might say, that falls to the rear, you're going to have some storm-water issues, you're going to have that tree-- the council aren't going to let you get rid of that Gumtree, you're going to have a problem there. We can't identify all the issues and then either say, "that's a good block of land, you should buy it," or, "no, you probably should look for the next one." That's I guess, a service that not really any people offer.
Then once they've bought the block, we say, "Okay, well, in the contract, make sure you get the vendor to sign to say that we can lodge a DA while you're in settlement stage." And that saves you six months, so we get extended settlements, we help them with all the technicality there, so that we can actually start designing by the time they settle the house is ready to start building. We do some little tricks there with them which are helpful and then--
Rebeka: People don't know they don't know that you can actually put down as much as a deposit or as little as a deposit as a person will accept and six months, I've had a nine-month, 10 months, 12 months settlement or something. That does allow you to lodge and get your paperwork in order. If you're organised, and this is the key to what you're talking about, right.
Neil: There's every stage of a property development, there's some way of saving money and it's just about strategy. You basically say, "Well, you want to buy that block? Why don't you make an offer and say I want the deposit to be 5% instead of 10%. I want the settlement to be 10 months," because that's plenty of time for us to do the design and get it approved with the option to sell early if you get the DA earlier, that saves that client probably 100 grand in holding costs, if it's a $2 million block of land.
We help in that sense. Then we basically help them from the design phase and say, we design in a way that is going to make a profit, if that's what their intentions are. We draw up the bones of the house and make sure all the load points are in a good spot from the ground all the way to the roof. There's no wasted cost in the design. Then we tell the client, "you should spend money on your facade, but the sides in the rear of the house, let's just put some cost-effective materials," things like that. Then we set a budget that is going to help them get a return.
Rebeka: Yes. Because you're involved in that feasibility from the beginning. The emotional connection to the sale, like how do you design something to appeal to the end-user without blowing the budget?
Neil: I guess we will assess all options. Then, I don't know if it answers the question properly. In terms of the end result, we basically mass model something, say, that's going to sell for 1.2, that's going to sell for 1.5. If we do this and this, it might sell for a bit more of it if we save some costs might sell for a bit less. We do some feasibility, chuck some different numbers around. We collaborate together between the architect, the developer, myself and then we talk to agents in the area and things like that, to get a collaborative opinion.
People just think, "you're an architect and the builder, you just design things and you build things." There's a whole lot more that comes into it than just that. Because I personally think designing luxury homes is very easy. Because you just throw money out, if you throw money and stuff, it's so easy, because everything looks good when you spend money. You look at cars like you bought a Ferrari, it looks nice, everyone knows that. With building, it's tricky to make something look expensive, but have a pretty tight budget that's going to make a profit at the end of it.
Rebeka: You need to have a budget, right. You need to be spending the right amount of money for that development-
Neil: For that development, yes.
Rebeka: It's probably easier to spend, "This is what I think it's easier to spend the right amount of money," if you know that you're going to make a profit at the end, right?
Neil: Exactly, yes. You got to work back from what you want to sell it for, you can't just say, "We're going to spend two million on the land and we're going to spend two million on the build. We're going to get three million each for the property." You got to talk to people, you got to look at comparable sales, you got to be realistic. Then even at that realistic point, you got to take 10% off that because the market might drop.
You look at that and say, "Okay, safely we can sell it for this amount, then let's go okay, well, if I'm going to buy it for this amount, I can only spend this amount on the build." The budget is set, it's not really what the client tells us to set it, we kind of tell them and say, "Well, if you spend over this amount, you're probably not going to get your money back." Or, "If you don't spend this much, people aren't going to want to buy it." It's a very practical way of designing a development. It's not based on emotion, it's based on the statistics of what that's going to sell for.
Rebeka: Yes, perfect. Are most people moving into one of the duplexes, or most people that come to you by selling them on or holding for rental?
Neil: The developers like because you if you're doing development, you got to do it as a company and pay GST and all the rest of it. They normally just sell them both or rent one, sell one, that sort of thing. Half our clients are people that already own the block of land, and they might be living in the existing house. They might just say, "Well, it's better for me to do a duplex as opposed to renovate because I can cover my bill costs by selling the other side." They basically keep living on the property effectively. We get them out for 12, 16 weeks while we build.
Rebeka: Go for a holiday.
Neil: Yes, go for a holiday or they live in one of our developments that we've got available.
Rebeka: Not only will you build for them, do the feasibility, but you'll put them up while you're building for them.
Rebeka: Yes, sure. [chuckles] I can't see why this works for people.
Neil: Well, if they're local in our area, it works. The clients that are out of area they probably don't want to move all the way to Cronulla, if they're in Bondi and things like that. Yes, we've got properties that we own, that we've developed ourselves and they're rentals. We basically just use them for our clients. Because when we're building in 12 to 16 weeks, there's not really a 16-week lease on a rental.
We've had a lot of clients say, "Well, we don't care if it's six months," but we want to build it in 16 weeks, because it helps us turn over jobs quicker. It basically is better for us as well. We'll say we'll come and live in at one of our properties while we build and then there's no risk for them in terms of if their lease runs out or all those things and the moving cost, they can just live in that and then we'll build for them. Then once we're finished, they'll move into the finished product.
It takes stress off us and then and all the red tape in terms of moving it, because a lot of people that stresses them out, it's enough to turn them off wanting to do it at all. We basically say, "Well, okay, you've got a house you're living in, we'll do a design, put in to Council, get the DA approved. Once it's approved, move into my place, I'll build yours 16 weeks. You can move back into your new house and sell the other house."
It's just so much more practical than doing a renovation in a sense, it depends on the property. What we're doing works because normally they sell that for a hell of a lot more than the cost of the build. There's money in their pocket at the end. That doesn't even make sense to most people to think that they're going to have more money, after spending so much money on a build.
Rebeka: That's quite a unique model to maybe how other builders are doing it.
Neil: I guess I'm unique. It's stressful, it is a lot of stress on a person to go through a schedule and get at that time to have 30 guys on site every day. I've got an office, there are eight guys in the office there just managing every single contract with every single subcontractor to make sure that they're going to be there on that day, and make sure that they follow through with what they say they're going to do.
As everyone knows, the whole building industry is full of unreliable people. We need to basically mitigate that risk. I know a lot of builders will say, "The brickie, he didn't turn up, not my fault. That's why the jobs delayed." We have an option to get another brickie or have backup plans, plan A, plan B, plan C, in our schedule there's options. Things are going to go wrong at a building site.
People don't turn up, things don't go to plan. We have backup plans and systems and procedures. There's definitely stuff that we do that a lot of other people don't do. I don't know why. I definitely am under a lot of stress. My guys are under a lot of stress. Some people don't want that. I thrive on that a little bit as well. Like I said from the start I was pretty terrible at certain things at school and things like that.
For me, to be successful drives me and I'm excited about coming to work and going. Now I probably got 150 people working for me today. This is going to be a chaotic day, I'm probably spending half a million dollars on concrete and steel and all this stuff in one day. How can I handle all this stress and a lot of builders will be like, "No, I'm out. I don't want to deal with that."
Rebeka: Now do you have a bit more work-life balance?
Neil: Yes, I do, but my wife will say otherwise. [chuckles] I am there. I can finish work at two o'clock every day and go home, but my brain is always thinking because I'm obsessed. It's almost like I would do it for free, I don't care about the money in the sense, that's where my jobs turn out good because I'm actually worried about every single detail.
I might be at home, just going, "Is that tiler going to do a mitre edge. What if he doesn't do a mitre edge?"
I'll call the tiler and go, "You're going to miter those tiles, aren't you?" "Yes, just relax. I'm going to miter the tiles." That sort of things on a weekend on a Sunday, I'm sitting there thinking about. I've got two kids now. I have to force myself to just turn the fan off sometimes and just spend some time at home. I've been doing for 12 years. I've got a pretty thick skin now in terms of what I can handle.
I understand things go wrong, things don't go to plan. I mitigate that bit better now over the years of realising that it's never going to change. There's always going to be problems every single day.
Rebeka: How many jobs would you have on the go?
Neil: It varies at times. Sometimes we have up to 20 houses going up at once. I've learned how to do that in a way that it's a little bit stress-free in terms of having really good site managers. We basically handpick good site managers that have got 30 years experience and things like that to basically sit on the side and just watch every single trade, make sure things go to plan.
If someone doesn't show up, they'll call the office straightaway. Then I'll have a team in the office that basically start making calls and organising plan B and things like that. We're never snowed under in the sense of site management. That's one thing that I'm big on and make sure that the site is really well managed. That's the whole reason for building so fast is if I can pay someone really good money to manage a site, I may as well load them up with a lot of guys, because otherwise, they're sitting there watching two painters paint a wall. It's too expensive.
The site manager is way more expensive than the cost of the subcontractor actually doing the work. My principle is like, "Well, if I'm going to pay a really good manager to manage the whole thing, just make sure they've got enough to manage." Lots of materials and lots of men on site is what they need.
Rebeka: Has anyone inspired you or taught you to do this or is that really just something that you've worked out yourself?
Neil: Not exactly. I didn't take from anyone, to be honest. I get inspiration off a lot of architects. I'm obsessed with architecture and I love design. In terms of management systems, and things like that, I work that out for myself, because there isn't actually a builder that I know of, doing what I'm doing. They don't custom build luxury developments in 12 to 16 weeks.
There are guys doing kit homes and prefab everything kind of vibe. I have never met someone that builds at our speed and has a luxury product and every single thing is custom. Every tile is different on every job. Everything's different. It's whatever the client wants, we just do that, but we still do it in a crazy timeframe. That's where we differentiate. I've created that system.
It is pretty hard to replicate because there's a lot of stress involved in making sure it all happens. When you've got a reputation and you've got like we've got many people on Instagram always following every project we do and they're always going, "Did you get it done in 16 weeks? Did you get done in 12 weeks?
Rebeka: I know, right? External pressure as well. [laughs]
Neil: We've done things with realestate.com.au, a series of two in twelve where actually-
Rebeka: Actually, that's worth checking out. If you haven't seen that, that's worth checking out, duplex in 12 weeks.
Neil: Yes, we got it done in 12 weeks for one of Australia's best designers, she was on site.
Rebeka: That's Catherine from The Stables.
Neil: Catherine from The Stables, yes. To please a really particular designer, and to build their house or two houses in 12 weeks, that was stressful, and to have a camera jammed down your throat every day to say like, "Okay. You said you were going to be doing the plastering today, where is the plasterers?" and all that stuff. It was chaos. There is a lot of added stress on us in terms of we've always got people watching.
If our site fence goes up on a job site, everyone in the neighborhood knows that that site fence is coming down in 16 weeks. When there are delays and rain and things like that, that are out of my control, I do get a little bit stressed and things. It's good.
Rebeka: Well, it's amazing because really, like from someone who was told, what was it your teacher told you?
Neil: You'd be good on a shovel.
Rebeka: -you'd be good on a shovel, and that's about it. You've managed to build a massive business that's employing hundreds of people adding so much value." You're really solving the three key issues for the customer and producing a better outcome for the built environment as well, because I think that's the other thing. People can build things really quickly and cheaply. Sometimes that's not a good quality product, which isn't good for anyone. What you're doing is proving that it can be done. You just need to be organised.
Neil: Yes. We've been going for 12 years. I've literally worked in the same area for 12 years, Caringbah, Cronulla, within five minutes. Nearly every second street we've built a house around here. If we were doing something wrong, we wouldn't have kept that workflow going for a 12-year period. The quality is so important to get the quality, right.
I've found that I can get a much better quality when I build fast as opposed to building slow. The frames that we build houses out of aren't meant to be in the weather. They're not water protected. You drive past jobs, and there are frames have been sitting out in the rain for six months straight with no roof on. Things like that people go or they're taking their time. They're not taking their time, they're just not organised.
For us, we're all about getting it done fast, having a supervisor, supervise everything. When you building slow you can't afford. No builder can afford to have a supervisor sitting there for a year. They just don't do that. They sit across 10 to 12 jobs and they're not watching every single trade. When you have 20 trades on-site, you can afford to have someone watching every single thing that every single trade's doing so things don't get missed. Quality ends up better.
I think it's a misperception in terms of quality like the commercial guys seem to do it fine. They have quality checks, they have supervisors, they have systems and procedures that don't allow things to get swept through the cracks. I think the quality is better with speed. That's my opinion.
Rebeka: Well, certainly the way you do it. For people that aren't obviously building in Cronulla or around here, and they looking to hire a builder, what would be one piece of advice you could give them?
Neil: I would say, look at their history. Don't just look at what job they're doing at the moment. Look back and see how long they've been around for. Have they got happy clients? It's pretty easy in a small community like we're in, it's pretty easy to say if someone isn't good. Word spreads pretty fast. I'd speak to their clients and I ask for some references, say, "Can I give a client a call?" Before you sign a contract, obviously, builders don't want you calling their clients and annoying him 10 times a day.
Before you sign a contract with a builder, check their build speed. I think build speed is so underestimated. That's if you're signing something that has a massive big open, who knows when this thing's going to finish kind of thing, I would never recommend doing that. Every subcontract that we sign, we have liquidated damages, and we have a strict timeframe because time is money on a development.
Even if it's a new house, you're going to be paying rent, somewhere you're going to be paying a mortgage, things like that. Everyone has holding costs, no matter what way you look at it, and people look at the end value as opposed to the holding costs if it is delayed. I think check the builders build speed and their track record of build speed. Then check their quality, run it by their clients.
You want to be working with someone that's going to make the process enjoyable. You want to talk to the client and say were they good to deal with? Where they argumentative? Where they stubborn? and all the rest of it. If you talk to their clients and their clients say, "No, they were great. They were understanding with every single change we made and they made it all happen in X amount of time. The budget was good and all that."
I think that word of mouth and talking to the actual consumer is the only way to check someone because it can be smoke and mirrors on Instagram and social media all you want. At the end of the day, I've never had a client sign a contract with me that hadn't run at least three clients and checked if it was for real what I was doing?
Rebeka: I know it sounds amazing. Thank you so much for having us and talking to us today. We'll put a whole heap of show notes underneath and some links through to Futureflip and some video and stuff like that. Make sure you check that out as well. You can see these houses.
Otherwise, Neil's on Instagram, so just Futureflip.
If you're part of the DevelopHers Inner Circle, you'll be getting access to how Neil does it behind the scenes and looking at some of those feasibilities. If you don't know what that is, there'll be a link to that as well. Make sure you check it out. Thank you so much.
Neil: Thank you. Appreciate it.
Rebeka: Thanks for listening to Building with BuildHer. We'd love you to spread the word.
Kribashini: For show notes, links and downloads, and other awesome resources and freebies head to buildhercollective.com.au. Don't forget that's BuildHer with an H-E-R.
Rebeka: If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean so much to both of us if you could take a minute or two to leave a review.
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